Real Food Summit

Christine

This is very interesting, thank you. However, I am getting confused about a few things.

I believe you said initially that gorillas ate leaves, and fermentation in their guts changed them to short chained fatty acids, so wouldn’t the fermentation in our guts do the same when we eat raw vegetables (although I believe you also said that our guts are smaller than gorillas)?

Also, I would imagine that many years ago, they ate their meat raw, whereas we eat it cooked. So therefore, surely we need enzymes to digest the cooked meat, which we could get from eating raw fruit and vegetables? or otherwise, maybe we should be eating our meat raw?

Another thing is, how do we know for sure that our ancestors didn’t suffer the diseases you mention, as they weren’t identified as such in those days?

In another presentation, we were told that our ancestors were born with genes to make vitamin C, but because they ate loads of vitamin C from fresh fruit and vegetables, the gene got switched off. However, you are saying that our ancestors didn’t eat a lot of fruit of vegetables, so that is contradictory.

Andrew

You’re right about humans being able to ferment some fiber into SCFAs. The only problem is our gut is not near long enough to aquire all caloric daily value through this method like gorillas do. You could most likely only receive 10% (200 cal) of total calories through fiber fermentation and SCFA metabolism, thus leaving yourself very deprived.

The theory for why humans do not synthesize vitamin C anymore has to do with a virus epidemic in the distant past which created a genetic mutation. I haven’t heard this other theory about the vitamin c gene being switched off due to over-abundance of fruit, etc.
- Christine
  
  It was in Dr. Cate Shanahan’s presentation that she said that our vitamin C gene was switched off due to our ancestors getting enough Vitamin C in their diet.
http://www.facebook.com/jaemi Jamie Ann

Ideally we should be eating meat raw, as close to rigor mortis as possible, otherwise we have to worry about bacteria and parasites. Difficult unless you hunt your own game/kill your own livestock. Of course there are ways to eat meat raw but I don’t recommend it even for the healthiest folk as it can be equated to Russian roulette.

Our ancestors were more prone to acute infections, not chronic diseases and this was due to many reasons, most notably poor sanitation.

Amanda

What a fascinating study of human evolution. Wow, so fatty meat is what we mainly need to eat. It makes perfect sense. What about dairy and fermented foods?

Annelie

Wonderful and makes so much sense! Thank you for your information Dr.Groves.

Kitchencorporal

Anne Conroy;
You are placing a moral judgement on the natural order of things. Nowhere on this summit have I heard anyone advocate the exploitation of animals. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite is true.
The fact of the matter is that something has to die in order for you to live. Killing and death must exist in order for LIFE to continue. You cannot have one without the other. There is no death free option (Lierre Keith)
You trivialize health?
If eating animals is truly the way to optimum health, then obviously that is what we should be doing. If your argument is that we can achieve optimum health through other means, then let’s hear it! Just leave the moralism out of it. Thanks.

seancroxton

Word!
- Ann Conroy
  
  Perhaps you should read my reply to Kitchencorporal.
Ann Conroy

You say that nowhere on this summit have you heard anyone advocate the exploitation of animals. Killing them has to be the highest form of exploitation. We artificially inseminate cows so that they will produce a calf, which we usually remove from the mother almost immediately after birth; if it’s female, we rear it to continue the milk producing cycle, and if it’s male it’s often shot in the head or killed for veal at about 14 weeks of age. All so we can drink its milk – an unnatural food for humans. We are the only species which consumes the milk of another animal. I’m sure that farmers such as Joel Salatin rear their animals in a much more humane way than the factory farms, although I certainly still cannot morally condone it. But the vast majority of animals are not so lucky. Here in the UK we kill 600 million animals each year to eat. I’m told that in the US it’s 10 billion land animals and 18 billion marine animals.
But cruelty to animals is not the only reason I try not to exploit them. If the land that was used to grow food to feed our animals was used to grow food for people, we would not have millions of people starving in this world. And if the land that was used to rear animals was used to grow plants, we could grow many times the amount of food. We would also not be contributing to global warming by destroying the rain forests. Or polluting our earth with methane produced by the animals.
So yes, it IS a moral issue, and not only for the animals.
As regards the morality of killing and using animals for our own ends, if you can’t see that it’s wrong then I’m sure I can’t persuade you.
But I can give you dietary advice for good health – eat a vegan diet.
- Taniko Kishimoto
  
  Ann:
  
  A lot of the land that currently grazes animals is not suitable for growing anything other than grasses. Which we cannot eat or absorb directly. Unless, perhaps, you want us using up more of the nearly-non-existent Colorado River, for instance, for irrigation.
  
  I will say the power that be are pushing cattle to live on lands they should NOT be on. Bison are better adapted to live in the western Great Plains.
  
  On the other hand, I will accept your definition of “exploitation”, but without exploitation cattle would now be extinct. I guess it is okay to exploit corn and soy and wheat instead? Obviously, by your definition, we are doing that, as well.
  
  There’s no escaping it. We ARE meat eaters. (AND vegetable-eaters). If you want to force evolutionary change in a few centuries, have at it. YES, we need to make massive changes in our food production and distribution routes, but becoming vegan is NOT going to work, long term. I have to say we’ve become afraid of our food sources. Afraid of bones. (Not that I don’t commiserate… CAFO beef and pork are off my plate and I am working my way to further exclusions.)
  
  Insects. Someone today mentioned insects. Have you ever swatted one?
- Taniko Kishimoto
  
  Ann, I’m really glad you stopped posting one-liners here. We may seriously disagree but it is easier to talk if information is exchanged.

Paria

As I understand it, one of the main argument points, is that as we ate less fat the size of our brains became smaller. But what about efficiency? Or how much of our brain was/is used? Or ability to learn, keep information, etc?

Essentially, is size the only aspect that fat intake is measured against or is there something more regarding brain use?

Thanks!

Annanannas

Look around you. Are people getting smarter, more enlightened, less stressed, more creative? I see the exact oppsite all around me.
- Annelie
  
  I agree with you, seems more and more people are having mental/health issues these days. Growing up in the 60′s and luckily for me my mom didn’t buy into the processed foods. I never caught a cold and was healthy, until I became an adult and started getting sick often with allergies and asthma. A few months ago my hands were stiff and painful. One thing led to another and I started researching. First thing I gave up were grains, within a week my hands felt better, within a month I have not had one allergy or asthma attack. I admit, I am a newbie at this, but what I have found so far is that whole foods, grass finished and non GMO foods are the answer, at least for me.
  Even if we don’t agree or shall I say understand everything this summit has been awesome.
  I thank you Sean for putting this together and sharing your knowledge and those of others. This has been such a blessing.
Jo

Glad you brought this up! My 12 yr old son said basically the same thing; as in high quantity doesn’t always mean better quality. He gave the analogy of computers comparing my old 2004 hard drive and desk top monitor vs his 2011 slim laptop that performs better. You could extrapolate this to comparing the first computers that took whole floors of a building vs a smart phone. I

I thought much of what Mr. Grove shared seemed to make sense but also felt some conclusions were drawn to fit his bias. Especially given that when Zoe Harcombe mentioned him…I googled his name and came across this link:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-groves-and-weston-price.html

That makes him out to be a crackpot. It sure can be real frustrating to sift through all the conflicting opinions/studies and advice out there!!!

Nonetheless I am thoroughly enjoying this fabulous summit—much appreciation to you Sean and your behind the scenes staff who put this together~Kudos!

Blessings to all

http://www.facebook.com/barb.dawdy Barb Dawdy

Great Presentation…Love the connection to the brain and veg diet. I still think presentations are better when you participate Sean.

http://www.facebook.com/barb.dawdy Barb Dawdy

Oh one thing I did catch and was not user he said the plains indians were meat eaters…if that is true then where did the 3 sisters come from (Corn, beans and squash). I have a gardening book (very old) written by decendents of these indians showing how they grew and harvested the 3 sisters. Then again I keep thinking how did they keep the deer out of the corn…maybe that was the the real purpose of planting it as a draw to bring in the meat. If you can get feed back from Mr Groves on the 3 sisters that would be great

Taniko Kishimoto

I suspect that all of the three sisters were NOT grown by the Plains Indians, but by other tribes, in areas which are better amenable to water-intensive plants. (The only reason corn grows in the Plains now is due to extensive irrigation.)
Taniko Kishimoto

Another thought here: we tend to conflate ALL regions of the Plains, and thus the tribes that live there, to a single climate. This is not precisely true. Certain regions of the Plains were very arid, others less so, and tribal dietary “decisions” reflected that.

Lyndsey P Johnson

So, I’m not the only one justifying my meat intake with the story of the lord favoring the shepherd. I think Caine probably had some inflammation resulting in depression & aggression due to his plant-based diet (or maybe it was a spell of low blood sugar).

Kellyinabnit

Thank you very much for the presentation. I found it to be very interesting. My own life experiences have proven to me that a diet high in good quality animal fats leads to a healthier life. I am a much healthier, happier, physically fit person because of a diet rich in animal fats and fresh organic produce….. Thank you too Sean! You were the one who put me on this diet two years ago.

seancroxton

My pleasure, Kelly! Glad you’re feeling good on your diet!

Elizabeth

Fascinating. I never knew about gorilla digestion and SCFA production. The question I have is this: If our brains began shrinking over 20,000 years ago, and markedly so 10,000 years ago with the development of agriculture, couldn’t there have been an evolutionary impetus to favor agriculture and smaller brains? Admittedly, the human race has done a pretty phenomenal job advancing over the past 5000 years with its shrinking brain. Wouldn’t humans, after 10,000 years, have adapted to and maintained vibrant health while adding grains, pulses, vegetables, etc. to a meat-based diet? Thank you so much for this presentation, it’s given me a lot to chew on

http://www.facebook.com/jaemi Jamie Ann

Excellent. Best presentation so far.

I have to disagree a little with Dr. Groves’ “one-size-fits all approach” from my research and experience with my patients and clients as I have come to see there is no “one-size fits all” even with high fat diets.

A high fat diet has sustained me for the past 12 years (approx. 70% calories from fat, daily intake). Your percentage depends on your ancestry – the closer to the equator, the less fat, the farther, more fat.

Also, going very low-carb can cause problems in certain individuals, myself included and this has to do with ancestry also. Difficult when many people are of mixed ancestry (including myself). Many factors must be considered, too many to be listed here.

Jamie Ann Montiel, RN-BSN

http://primaltoad.com/ Todd Dosenberry

I agree with you. Excellent presentation but not every individual should be eating low carb. And this is for a variety of reasons as you have stated.

And, as Chris Kresser I think notes, our dietary needs as individuals change as time goes on. Very high fat might work for one person and then that same person may do better with a much higher carb intake years down the road.

Ashley

This one was so informative and my favorite so far!

http://www.facebook.com/brian.maceachern.1 Brian MacEachern

Mind BLOWN!!!
Best presentation so far!!

Kenny Cartwright

Interesting presentation. The use of the Bible, however, was a bit skewed. Originally, Adam was to eat a vegetarian diet, after the flood, I believe it was, Noach was allowed to eat meat. Later, in the commands of the Torah, the fat of an animal was not to be eaten- the meat was kosher and I expect the fat contained in it. Still, an interesting presentation.

Jen

I would love to know what a sample of Dr. Groves daily diet might be?? He mentioned he drinks coffee…what a relief! Not sure I could give that up. Great quotes, science and one-liners in here. Thanks for the fascinating presentation

Dana

Dr. Groves is Brilliant!!!! Fantastic Presentation! The Best! Thank You.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=718210342 Autumn Garrod

This is the best presentation yet. Full of facts, but in an interesting way, not a boring way! Thanks for this.

Barbara

I can understand why Barry would not recommend processed
starches but saying that you do not even need veggies or an occasional fruit?
Wouldn’t we be missing on a lot of vitamins, minerals etc.?

Deborah7

A truly well presented, informative talk. Thankyou

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1241952645 Roseann Ligenza-Fisher

All I can say is that my younger daughter became a vegetarian and avoided meat for 9 years. After many episodes of passing out, feeling tired, feeling weak, and being diagnosed as being anemic, she went back to eating meat once again. Oh and her cholesterol levels were borderline high when she was a vegetarian and now that she has begun eating meat again, her cholesterol has dropped to below 200. So much for a low fat, plant based diet lowering your cholesterol, eh? Also, I’ve been prediabetic and have regulated my blood glucose levels and lost weight since I’ve stopped eating the processed grains, fruit, and starchy vegetables. I’ve also lowered my cholesterol from 485 to 209 by eating all the grass fed raw butter, cheese, whole milk, bacon, grass fed sausage, and whole eggs that I wanted. I burn fat now instead of carbs for energy and have never felt better. So happy I’ve found REAL food.

Ann Conroy

I’m surprised to hear that your daughter developed health problems on a vegetarian diet. Very occasionally I hear that vegetarian diets have adversely affected some people, and I always suspect that the diet was not well balanced in some other way. I have been a vegan for 21 years, and have had no adverse effects whatsoever.
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1241952645 Roseann Ligenza-Fisher
  
  Hi Ann,
  Well, I think it’s because she was consuming a lot of soy, like the soy based Boca veggie burgers. That stuff is nothing but GMO soy and other GMO fillers, flavors, chemical preservatives, etc…
  I’m glad that she is off the vegetarian kick..it wasn’t good for her. Not every diet is good for every person. I prefer that she eat grass fed real meat as opposed to chemically laden GMO soy based veggie burgers. If you think that not all soy is GMO..then do your research…95% of it is. She’s doing much better now and that’s all I want for her. She’s not passing out and she’s not anemic anymore. Maybe she takes after me, a full fledged grass fed meat and raw dairy eating person…LOL As I said, everyone is different.
  - Ann Conroy
    
    I believe that you’re right about the GMO soy in the USA. The situation here in Britain is much better in that respect. It is, of course, possible to eat a perfectly healthy vegetarian, or vegan, diet, yet avoid soy completely. I’m not sure that a diet high in veggie burgers (or any other burgers) is likely to be well-balanced. My diet consists of mostly freshly-prepared fruit, veg, pulses, nuts and grains. I very rarely use ready-made burgers, sausages and the like.
    However, my main reason for being vegan is to avoid the exploitation of animals (along with destruction of the rain forests, human starvation, etc.).
    It would be a very good thing if more people – meat-eaters or not – campaigned against the production of GMO crops.

Andrewpaul99

I didn’t listen to the whole lecture admittedly but from what I did hear, there were some inaccuracies which force me to call into question the credentials of the speaker. Sources quoted were outdated, arguments were based on false assumptions.

For example; Ethiopia not the cradle of life – earlier hominids have been discovered in Indonesia, Homo Australopithicus for example which survived on a diet of bark and leaves. They did not have a diet which comprised largely of meat, rather meat was a luxury item and succesful hunts a rare occurence. Perhaps why they were deemed sufficiently extra-ordinary for depiction in cave paintings. Another inaccuracy – we CAN eat mosses and lichens. As proved they formed a major part of our diet along with bark and leaves. There are many, many other falsehoods, perhaps the most important is regaridng early human evolution, in particular the increase in brain size. A common fallacy is that this was linked to diet.

Between 3.4 and 2.5 million years ago the SRGAP2 gene duplicates, twice. This gene speeds up the migration of neurons across the developing brain and helps them to form more connections. The increase in brain size is therefore due to a genetic mutation, which survived as it in turn led to an increase in intelligence and therefore an advantage. Afterwards diet changed. The idea that diet was the sole reason for the increase in brain size has long been rejected.

Furthermore, this happened many millions of years after we diverged from the common ancestor with our closest primates, which, out of interest, are NOT gorillas Comparing our diet to that of Gorillas will provide no insight.

Christine

I took a look at Barry Groves website and he states that he had colon cancer 19 years ago (at the time his cancer started, he was eating what was referred to then as a healthy diet (wholemeal bread etc). I quote from his site – “At the time my cancer was removed, there were three in the village where
I live with the same disease. We all had the same treatment in the same
hospital by the same surgeon. The others followed their consultant’s
advice to eat more fibre and cut down on fats. I am the only one who
didn’t — and I am the only one who survived.” Quite remarkable.

Taniko Kishimoto

The thing about this presentation in a nutshell (or two): He presented a convincing case that we do eat meat, and evolved to eat meat. But it is the Either/Or dicotomy I disagree with. (At least he got me thinking…) . I do think the potency of concentration of nutrients into fish or mammal helped raise up our brains and brain power. But I soundly disagree that we don’t need vegetation at all … a throwaway line at the end of his presentation.

We (most of us anyway) cannot survive well long-term and healthily on a vegan diet, no questions there. But a healthy, vegetarian low-starchitarian (and now, non-faux food sourced — ie, no fakin’bacon, no hexane-tainted soy protein isolate/textured soy protein, no mock duck gluten wads) diet has produced people who indeed thrive well long term. Some of these dietary plans do indeed exist in various cultures that have been around a while. I think we are all better off incorporating eggs and dairy and seafood at a minimum, and it appears that those cultures that do so, indeed do so thrive.

Ann Conroy

I have been a vegan for 21 years. I have no health problems that I (or my doctors) can attribute to my diet. And my conscience is clear! If you’re interested, please read my reply to Kitchencorporal above, which gives some pretty good reasons for being vegan.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=758650636 Zergham Tareen

I can’t watch it says this video is private, why?

Kelly

I did a tour of my local zoo with a staff horticulturalist a few days ago. They told me that if a possum gets too close to the orangutan enclosure, the orangutans will catch and eat it. Even the red panda which primarily eats leaves and fruit will occasionally eat a dove which las landed in it’s tree.