Real Food Summit

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Matt Stone

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Jenny McGruther

Room 3
Donielle Baker

How to Win an Argument with a Vegetarian
Presenter: Denise Minger
Website: www.rawfoodsos.com

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Delisa

I was very disappointed to hear this interview. Even though Denise has obviously done a lot of “research” it seems very glib of her to dismiss the evidence that people on a whole-foods, plant-based diet thrive. Of course a vegan junk-food diet is unhealthy. So what! Taking the typical diet of American omnivores, just removing the meat, dairy, and eggs, of course this won’t be a healthy diet! ! ! Part of choosing a plant-based diet means eating lots of plants, which definitely supports health. Most Americans base their diets on processed foods and animal products. Taking away the animal products, which just leaves the processed foods, isn’t a fair way to evaluate a vegan diet.
So . . . sorry . . . you didn’t convince me of anything except that your own “research” is very selective.
- http://twitter.com/cavebaker Liz
  
  You’ve missed the point. She’s defending whole food animal products in the diet, saying that there is no conclusive evidence that proves animal foods cause disease. She goes on to show how the China Study, which is the vegan/vegetarian answer to everything, is flawed. As a former vegan, I can tell you that the majority of the vegan/vegetarian community thinks that they are immune to modern diseases, which is totally untrue. Like Denise said, there are many other factors at play. A more in depth discussion–understatement of the year–is on her blog: http://rawfoodsos.com/category/china-study/
  
  A vegetarian who eats whole foods and removes refined carbohydrates and vegetable oils has a healthy diet compared to most Americans who eat meat and include these toxins. The only issue is that the vegetarian diet is deficient in vital nutrients: fat soluble vitamins, fats, B vitamins, and K2.
- Matt
  
  Denise isn’t dismissing evidence that whole-food plant-based (just call it vegan, geez!) diets are so awesome. She’s just saying that evidence isn’t even there to begin with. Taking the average American diet and removing animal products isn’t going to necessarily be a healthy diet. But take a whole-foods omnivore diet (think paleo) and removing animal products definitely produces a diet that, as a whole, is less nutritious than what you started with.
http://www.habitguide.com/ Mike

Love Denise Minger, many thanks.
alien99

This girl is their only way to continue to promote a terrible diet the Atkins diet no called Paleo lot of meat is bad for you end of story. Talk about a CHERRY picker? The Paleo community loves to hear good things about bad habits and their DIS-eases will eventually confirm this. She attempts to de-bunk these books with her 18 year old mind. But a you kid a banana and a chicken and the kid will eat the banana and never kill the chicken for food. This GIRL is stupid and this is a very WEAK interview. Good luck if you ever follow this person.
- Martin Levac
  
  “This girl is their only way…”? Obviously, you haven’t listened to the other presentations, especially not Barry Groves.
  - alien99
    
    Go ahead and eat as much meat as you want. 99.0% of meat isn’t organic, is loaded antibiotics, and chemicals. So go for it and the result will be the same thing that has been exploding not going down…more cancer, more heart Dis-ease, blood clots, obesity and etc etc. Everyone of the people who teach this way of eating has been or still is a fat ASS. I love taking to from former fats asses or current fat asses. Really??? Is that really smart to learn from a former obese person?? I think i would look at how people eat who are actually healthy and have been their entire life.
    - Sara .
      
      When you’re trying to make a point, using proper spelling and grammar and not abusing punctuation goes a long way towards establishing your credibility. Same goes for not using blanket statements like “Everyone of the people [sic] who teach this way of eating has been or still is a fat ASS.”
      - Bb4wa
        
        You are so right. As soon as I see the abuse of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and blanket statements, my eyes glaze over and I stop reading.
      - alien99
        
        This is a loose conversation not grammer school…did you get the point? I arrest my case. People like you are so particular you can never make a decision and accomplish anything because you are to busy crossing t’s and dotting i’s, but I thank you because it helps contribute to my bottom line. I can bet you are a fat ass albiet with perfect grammer skills:)
      - MeatEater
        
        I “arrest” my case? Also, your third sentence is a run on. And, the phrase, “you are to busy” should be written as, “you are too busy.” To and too are completely different words and thus have different meanings. Oh and “grammer” is actually spelled grammar, with an “ar”. Maybe if you ate some butter you might be able to remember high school English. I rest my case.
      - alien99
        
        And back to the real story Charlie…There is a 8 out 10 chance you are a sexually frustrated obese person. Thank you for the grammar tips:)
      - MeatEater
        
        Actually I’m neither. I can see that math isn’t exactly your strong suit either.
      - alien99
        
        When you are talking to someone do you edit their speech as you hear them speak??
      - SReed
        
        I stop listening and reading when the only way you can make your statement or pose your side is to use bad language.
      - catalina
        
        Usually I find that when someone rips apart what someone else is saying, and resorts to using profanity or calling someone stupid, it is a very clear indication that they are feeling threatened, that the way they believe about something is being threatened, and perhaps that this person even realizes that there is great truth in what they are hearing. But because we humans are so scared of change we fight back and are obnoxious and insulting as we desperately attempt to cling to our old beliefs.
        
        Truly balanced people, who are secure in their beliefs, whatever they may be, have no need to be argumentative and insulting, and are accepting of the fact that there are many ways to go through this life, many ways of seeing things, doing things, and believing. They accept that others can be different from themselves and still be acceptable as a human being.
- http://twitter.com/gd42 Greg
  
  alien99, If you actually listened to the interview you would know she dealt with the “meat is acidic” theory. If you disagree with her conclusion then that’s fine but I think the real question that needs to be asked is “Why are you here in the first place?” You’re not going to persuade anyone to believe as you do so why come here and hurl insults and accusations?
  - alien99
    
    Meat is acidic end of story. If you eat to much it will burn you literally from the inside out. It is just base chemistry. I’m here to just marvel at the ignorance being spread so the industry leaders can sell their books, diets fads and supplements. Americans love this because it confirms there already bad habits. 8 our 10 people are fat to obese and rising. I have never been overweight a day in my life which is double what Denise Minger has experienced. She doesn’t know anything but this is the Paleo response to a vegan diet? Dr. Robert Morse would blow this young girl off the planet with his advance skills as a healer of people with stage 4 cancers. That is just one guy. This diet has NEVER healed anyone of CANCER or any Dis-Ease for that matter. Look at all the people walking around with inflammation and bloated bodies and faces, they are everywhere. Good luck….It’s good to come by here and have laugh at the gullible people taking more bad diet advice once again for the 4,069(books)th time.
Robert

First,
let’s clarify something. Vegan and vegetarian diets are not the same. When we
simply lump them together, as this person constantly did, we do nothing more
than express our own dietary ignorance.

Becoming
a raw food vegan at seven years old is monstrously incompetent parenting! Sorry
but no seven year old child is capable of managing this diet. At sixteen she
was so confused she couldn’t remember her last sentence? Again where was the parental supervision?

Now she
is denouncing all vegetarian, vegan diets. What? She doesn’t know what a
vegetarian diet is! She hasn’t lived long enough to validate the diet she is
advocating. What she is doing is interpreting information, without any
background, degrees or formal education, the work of educated people who have
studied societies, diseases and the anthropology of disease.

You are
calling this a “debunk”? A debunk of what? Where is the response from
Ornish and Esselstyn. Where is the open forum offering a balanced rebuttal to
this opinion? Where is the science to back up her opinion?

I’m a
sixty seven year old vegetarian, who never had a weight problem, never got sick
on a vegetarian diet and am disease free, drug free and can work 12 hard hours.
She is an eighteen year old girl who hasn’t lived long enough to know if her
dietary concepts will afford her the health I have experienced for the next
twenty years much less the next forty nine! Let’s not forget she failed
horribly the first sixteen years of her life so that only leaves two years on
her miraculous diet.

You
think you can win a debate with a vegetarian, tell me how you’re going to win
that one?

This
summit should be embarrassed to offer this talk after the talks of Joel Salatin
and Dr. Kate. If this is the best support you have to offer for a paleo diet
than don’t expect this diet to last any longer than the multitude of fad diets
that preceded it.

Shame on
you!

Robert
- http://twitter.com/cavebaker Liz
  
  LOL I love when vegetarians call traditional diets “fads”. It’s funny!
  We’re glad that you have lived a full, healthy life as a vegetarian, but not everyone who is malnourished has the same experience.
  Also, there are many brilliant, well-educated doctors, scientists, nutritionists, etc. who advocate animal products in the diet, so the appeal to authority doesn’t work.
  - Robert
    
    A vegetarian diet works, Da Vinci was a vegetarian, it’s not
    a fad, Atkin’s is a fad. People who poorly apply a vegetarian diet want to
    blame the diet. We never want to take responsibility for our own actions.
    
    Sorry this story reminds me of the line in Good Will
    Hunting, “Anything I can learn from you I can get from a book.”
    
    Where are the years of personal experience? She’s been on a
    Paleo diet for a few years, what was she saying about her vegetarian diet in
    the ninth year while she was still failing at it? It’s a great diet? Now she
    wants us to believe she’s found nirvana? What isn’t she telling us? What will
    her health be in twenty years?
    
    It bothers her that people have 400 cholesterol on a Paleo
    diet? Give me something to work with here.
    
    Get an education, live with the diet for 30 or 40 years and
    then come out with a book if it still works for you. She’s writing a book now? Sure
    she’s making money, you figure it out.
    
    And everyone who thinks her parents were highly responsible
    people for letting her go vegan at seven raise your hand.
    
    She should have been vetted, yes shoot the messenger!
    
    Robert
- Ivana
  
  ”Where is the open forum offering a balanced rebuttal to
  this opinion? Where is the science to back up her opinion? ” Read her blog http://www.rawfoodsos.com and you’ll find plenty of science to back it up. Rebuttals even. This presentation was very topline and, yes, a touch glib, but still no reason to shoot the messenger.
- Paul
  
  First, paleo a fad diet that won’t last? It lasted over two million years. Second, where are the vegetarians and vegan society in out past? No where because there are none. Third, I believe you when you say you are a vegetarian because you sound so rigid in your criticisms. Vegans/vegibores tend to be militant about their diet. (Lack of animal fat.)
  - Robert
    
    First, I did
    not dismiss the diet. Do I think it needs to be vetted? Yes, and that will take
    several generations. To say it is how people’s ate over 10,000 years ago does
    not validate the diet. This is how science works:
    
    We make an
    observation of facts and from that observation we draw a hypothesis, a guess.
    As more information comes in we modify and update our hypothesis. If it holds
    up through time and more gathered facts we call it a theory, The Theory of
    Relativity for example.
    
    I think the
    major question in the diet arises from our interpretation of exactly what
    people were doing 10,000 years ago. What we have done is make several
    assumptions that may or may not be true about those peoples. This is not the
    same as observing material facts that lie before us. We must ask the question,
    what if our hypothesis is not correct, what if we are missing key factors that
    could change the equation?
    
    I think
    eating a holistic diet is a good start but I am concerned about the quality of
    animals and fish today. This is not the Paleolithic period and people aren’t
    eating grubs from the roots of weeds, today we have massive pollution in our
    oceans and on our lands. Today meat is riddled with pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics
    and growth hormones. As we move up the food chain chlorinated hydrocarbons
    (pollution) are cumulative. The higher we eat on that food chain the more
    mercury we get in our fish and the more pollution we get in our meat.
    
    Fish are
    being depleted from our oceans faster than they return, farmed fish live in
    their own feces and are fed such poor diets that red dye has to be used to make
    them visually appealing so they can be sold.
    
    With these
    things said, and there are more issues with this diet that I think time will
    answer, my final view is that the jury is still out, so proceed with caution if
    you choose to rely on it for your wellbeing.
    
    The
    objection to this series of talks is the holistic view is not expressed. We cannot
    simply eat well and be well. Health is a three legged stool. Spiritual, nutritional
    and physical. Leave one leg off and the stool collapses. So if you are going to
    explore human health it is a misconception to simply address nutrition. When we
    do that and extrapolate information to validate our diet we are failing
    scientifically.
    
    This is why
    I spoke of this girl’s life, her parents and I questioned here wellbeing from
    several perspectives, not just nutrition. She may be perspicacious but is she
    well? Let’s not confuse the two.
    
    Was I hard
    on her? Yes, absolutely, but people are taking advice from her and this is
    basically the blind leading the blind. So once again I say, educate yourself
    formally, this gives you a greater perspective of this complex issue. Then I
    say come back in 30 or 40 years when the diet you are now applauding has shown
    you to be in good health. Writing a book now on this diet would be no better
    than writing a book when she was on her vegetarian diet.
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
    
    “This
    dietary approach is a controversial topic amongst dietitians[16][17] and anthropologists,[7][18] and an article on the National Health
    Service of the United Kingdom Choices website suggests that it may
    be a fad diet.[19] Critics have argued that if
    hunter-gatherer societies failed to suffer from “diseases of
    civilization”, this was mostly due to reduced calories in their diet,
    shorter average lifespans, or a variety of other factors, rather than some
    special diet composition.[20] Some researchers have taken issue with
    the accuracy of the diet’s underlying evolutionary logic.[20][21][22]
    
    Also disputed
    are some dietary recommendations and restrictions on the grounds that they
    provide no health benefits or pose health risks[20][21] and are not likely to accurately
    reflect the features of ancient Paleolithic diets.”
    
    Again, I thank
    the people who have given these talks but if our goal is holistic wellbeing
    than let’s vet our lecturers and let’s hear from people like Dean Ornish who
    may give us a different perspective and let’s hear from people like Deepak
    Chopra and Andrew Weil.
    
    As far as I can
    see this is a group with a myopically singular message and human health is not
    a singular issue.
    
    Warmest
    regards,
    
    Robert
Elaine

To those who are critical of Denise’s age with respect to her taking the authoritative position she does.

First, she is not 18. She states her birth year as 1987 (May), which makes her 25. I am a public educator and have worked with high school and middle school students for 25 years. Every now and again I encounter students like Denise, and I am in awe. This young woman has a phenomenally quick mind and is able to distill information from complex studies. Yes, she may sound glib — but she’s 25. Listen to the substance of what she’s saying. When she’s 40 she’ll sound like a 40 year old.

This past June I celebrated the high school graduation of a student very much like Denise. He took every AP and honors class available at our high school. In 11th grade he took 5 such classes all at once, along with a 2nd year Spanish class. This student aced every class and earned the top score on every AP test. These kids think differently than the average or even above average student. They will be the driving force behind change that promises hope for humanity. Encourage her, support her, and smile at her youthful presentations of very heady stuff.

One more thing — yes, indeed, I have no trouble believing that Denise would have been such a 7 year old that she would have had the critical thinking skills to question the wisdom of the food she was given. The best most attentive parents would be hard-pressed to force such a child to modify her beliefs and behavior.